Curse

Fril Estelin · Jan 07, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

And actually that is how an IGMO would think. I rest my case your honor. We have won yet another victory in the truth of the matter.

Obviously, if you think in these black&white terms, reality gets a different taste for you than it gets for me. I very happily declare that you've won this thead: happy now? If so, please take your trophy out of this thread which may, hopefully, bring us more shades of grey in a world (digital or not) that needs it painfully. (If not, well please, convince yourself that you did; anyway I don't think that this thread will impact Anet's or Blizzard's sales

)

In everyone's mind, there are deep personal opinions that can't be changed because of other's subjective opinions: if you had a better experience at GW than WoW, or vice-versa, it's difficult to accept the contrary because many people had different experiences from you. (but at the same time, one also has open-mindedness to put some distance between his own XP and the potential of the game, thus trying to get a more global picture, but that is not easy either)

Master Knightfall · Jan 07, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

The bottom line is no one really is going to change anyone elses mind on either of the two games. The idea behind this thread in the beginning was once again a hidden reason to "compare" the two for the betterment of one in the OP eyes and mind. They are always all like that. There's no subjective and lots of objective opinons in everyone of these threads. There's trolls and retards and idiots and IGMO's and a handful of intellectuals that just want to try their hand at debating and arguing again for ole times sake remembering their better/younger days in college or whereever they liked to debate an argue an issue. lol

It's a rediculous circle of his and hers black n white right and wrong about either and or both supremacy, but, the single physical numerical outcome is always the same and can't be denied...WOW is number one.

Etta · Jan 07, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Hey! If Mr.T said wow is good, then it must be! Who am I to argue with him?

Don't make me post a pic of William Shatner.

freekedoutfish · Jan 07, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You know what's sad? This very type of reasoning is not going through my mind, but I agree that many people do behave like that (I think it may also be because life gets more and more like that). The social pressure is getting the best of a lot of people, and showing off becomes the norm (and the other extreme in GW: people start fighting against the MMO side of the game and want to be left alone, in their instance, with their "real friends"). I asked earlier in this thread if this was also the case in WoW, meaning if it's statistically as bad as in GW, but I guess it's not a real question (and probably a question which interests few people).

I personally dont think its a bad thing to have this competitive attitude ingame. This idea of wanting elite armor or elite weapon to be look better then someone else isnt really a bad thing.

Its obviously not the desired effect and it doesnt take priority over skill and ability, but it is a driving force to play.

Would you deny that you've never seen a person in an MMO with elite armor and thought "damn I wish I had that, because it makes you look tough"?

Its a bit different in WoW because epic armor has a certain look to it. Its all grand and big and over the top, so you can tell epic armor an mile away. While in GWs armor and weapons are more about just looking nice.

But we all still know elite armor when we see it!

I dont feel that kind of attitude is something to be ashamed off at all. It basic human instinct to want to be better or equal to someone else, and see that in a vain sense aswell as a skil sense.

It does no harm because its just a game and I admit thats why I have half my armor died black or white and why I own destroyer gloves because it has that eliteishh feel to it.

Call me vain if you wish, because I know I am in person

I dont think its something which any MMO or online RPG could or will ever escape. Whether it be GWs, WoW, HGL, Mythos, Dungeon Runners etc etc etc. There will be players in all online games who want to look the best they can and as elite as they can.

If for no better reason then when someone wisps you and says "wow you look cool" and you smile to yourself!

Although if your the kind of person actually thinks epic or elite gear makes you a better player then a reality check is needed IMO!

But it is a key part to any online game and if GWs went offline, I think we would loose that and we would loose one of the key driving forces to playing the game.

One reason I choose to play online RPGs to offline RPGs is this very reason. To strive to be a higher level then newbie and to own elite armor before someone else and then maybe go back to low end areas and feel slightly egotistical.

If it was offline, I wouldnt get that because it would be just NPCs and no real people! No human reactions to me!

I question anyone who says they dont act or dress a certain way in an online game to feel superiour to others at some point in their lives!

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Honestly I think that anyone who plays GW and thinks WoW is a horrible game is a fanboi. Anyone who plays WoW and thinks GW is a horrible game is a fanboi.

They are both similar games, but they are grossly different in how they handle the aspects of an online rpg. There are pros and cons to each game.
The level of success shouldn't be any indicator that every aspect of one is superior to the other. It simply is not true. Each game has managed to do something well enough to be successful and because of that each game can only be seen as possessing appealing qualitys.

People are passionate about the games they like, but they need to recognize that different games are created from different minds and each dev staff for each game has managed to come up with both great and stinky ideas for each of the game's aspects.
Not everyone cares equally about all aspects in a game.

* Some care more about character progression.
* Some care more about account progression.
* Some care more about immersion and exploration of the land.
* Some care more about variety and exploration of abilities.
* Some care more about an equal playing field in competitions.
* Some care more about dynamic, unpredictable scaled competitions.

Depending on how much weight one puts on particular aspects of each game will dictate which game they see as better. That's simply the way it is and will always be.
Preference can't be used as an accurate indicator of the definitive quality of something, in that it's still subjective and preferences are always fleeting.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jan 07, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

the OP's post seems a well thought out way of saying he likes wow more.

i see nothing wrong with wow aside from its monthly fee. and the fact its a trend.

just because 5 million copies have been sold doesnt mean its a better game, it just means 1 million players own 5 copies.

also its more of a trend than anything else. and most people consider pay to play something to brag about, they enjoy wasting money, makes them feel superior. and whos to say 5 million people don't have bad taste?

the excessive use of the word "retard" in this thread and on this site is becoming a serious problem. the people using it are very offensive and should receive temp bans. if you must use demeaning words, try Stupid, Idiotic, Moronic, those are by choice, retarded is something you can't help. this is what happens when people care more about a game than their education or social graces.

back on topic. i don't hate wow, i hate the fee. but i have been a blizzard player since diablo 1 and warcraft 1. i know that blizzard steals/borrows ideas from many other games. WoW is just another cheap knock off of warhammer fantasy battle + Dungeons and Dragons coated with pretty colors.
StarCraft was a very fun yet very weak and generic version of warhammer 40k, diablo is a knock off of DnD. though i enjoy diablo and starcraft and warcraft i am not a fanboy. Lost Vikings is the most original product ever made by blizzard and even that is a rip off.

As for guildwars. i play it, it is currently my favorite game to play and i hate 60% of it completely. from the over priced ugly armor, to the same boring items with new skins to the childish community. but hey its better than alot of other trash out there and its free to play. but how many times can you release the same game with a new look? ask anet! I have to say i do love the heroes, the monsters and alot of the skills. Oh and minatures! And the kurzick armor holds a special place in my heart, looks alot like chaos armor from warhammer. very nice look. best armor in the game IMO.

PS: Marrowwind rocked back in its day! and i am not bashing blizzard, i am a fan of blizzard with a very objective opinion.

DreamRunner · Jan 07, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

No just admit which is the better game overall and play what YOU like. I never said GW is a bad game I just said it's not number ONE. That's what most people here have a problem with admitting when it is as plain as day. The numbers don't lie. The populations don't lie. The overall CONTENT of both games doesn't lie. WOW offers soooooo much more than GW's. As I said though before GW's is for the poor and most pre-teens and teenagers. Not much here for adults at all really. No progression, no real goals that have any real value. Just a handful of titles offer any real value within the game once you've defeated all the chapters and expansion pak. Thas all.

Post is full of fail because I actually get out of GW PvP much more than I could ever in WoW. Also generalizing isn't a good way to prove your point either.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

I wish someone would actually make a post of real differences between the games, and try not to use subjective terms as which is "better" or "more fun". That doesn't do anyone any good!

Example:

Transportation

Guild Wars has Map travel. WoW has flight paths which give you a bird's eye view of the territory, but take longer and cost money. One important exception are Mages, which at higher level can teleport to a main city.

Character Cusomization

Number one difference:

In Guild Wars, only your Primary is fixed. Everything else about your character can be changed, even your secondary (for a nominal fee of 500g in Factions and Nightfall).

In Wow, once you pick your Race and Class, it's stuck in stone. The only thing you can change in WoW is your Profession (the harvesting and crafting skills), and changing that will reset your Profession to zero. There are Talent trees as well, and these can only be reconfigured at a price (caps at 50g). Gold is worth more in WoW than in GW, becuase they have Copper and Silver as well.

After I've played WoW a bit longer, I'll be better able to compare Race/Class vs. Primary/Secondary. From what I've gleaned off the interwebs, there is actually very little differences in the races at higher levels (besides some abilities that are race specific, like Human's detection ability or Dwarves ability to see chests on the minimap). But as to how effective Human's sword bonus is at level 70? That I don't know.

Mounts

One thing Guild Wars does not have is mounts. In WoW you can get a mount at level 40. Warlocks and Paladins get free mounts. Druids can change into a Cheetah for travel. You can pay extra gold to get an Epic mount (goes faster), and in the Burning Crusade expansion only offers flying mounts (these aren't uasable outside of Outlands, the BC area). An Epic flying mount will set you back 5,000 Gold!

And before GW player get too jealous, you cannot fight from mounts.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I wish someone would actually make a post of real differences between the games, and try not to use subjective terms as which is "better" or "more fun". That doesn't do anyone any good!

You are right Mordakai. This topic is largely subjective and so far pointless.
I'll throw in a couple of aspects that are different between the 2 games.

Zone handling:
Non-Instanced Zones (WoW)
Player adventures are more dynamic and exciting in that they can bump into, interact and group with other players while fighting, exploring, ect. Non-instanced zones also create a seamless immersion in the virtual world. You'll never know what's going to happen next in a non-instanced zone, thanks to the always unpredictable player element.

Instanced Zones (GW)
Bandwidth is reduced, lowering overhead, which in part helps to allow the non-subscription model. Servers, or shards are not necessary, allowing the player accessibility in interacting with anyone else who plays the game. Instanced zones also allow mechanics, such as movable pieces to solve challenges, NPCs grouping with players, ect.

Character Progression:
Power Scaling (WoW)
Allows a character to continually grow and be something a player can be proud of. Provides a more rewarding source of incentive motivation to play the game. Also allows characters to easily breeze through content that is trivial to them, thereby enabling them to get to the content that is suited for them much faster.

Build Making (GW)
Player accomplishments have little to do with the power level of their character, but more with the players intimate knowledge of game mechanics and their ability to create and play builds suited to that challenge. This provides an accessibility to game content that is less dependent on time played with a particular character, but more on what the player is capable of.

That's all I got for now. I wonder if anyone will disagree with me.

Etta · Jan 07, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

When this man speaks, you'll listen! hohoho

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Character Progression:
Power Scaling (WoW)
Allows a character to continually grow and be something a player can be proud of. Provides a more rewarding source of incentive motivation to play the game. Also allows characters to easily breeze through content that is trivial to them, thereby enabling them to get to the content that is suited for them much faster.

On the flip side, it also makes lower level content pretty much useless once a character advances past it. Everytime Blizzard makes an expansion, the previous content becomes obsolete to high level characters.

EDIT: This might change with WotLK, as the Death Knight might have to go back to earlier areas to level up... should be interesting to see how Blizzard implements its first Hero class.

Also, you still have to have intimate knowledge of game mechanics to succeed in WoW. You need to decide in advance how you want to advance up the talent tree to avoid paying a fee to change it later. But advancing up those Talent Trees is certainly a carrot that is hard to resist!

tmr819 · Jan 07, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I think there are a number of secondary differences, in which I would score these two games as follows:

* Map travel (GW +1) vs. conventional travel (WoW -1)
* No Auction House (GW -1) vs Auction House (WoW +1), etc.

and primary differences such as:

* Crafting (WoW +2) vs. no real crafting (GW -2)
* Monthly fee (GW +2) vs. subscription (WoW -2), etc.

In terms of general PvE I'd place the two games on about an equal level.

In terms of PvP I really can't compare them cause I don't PvP ... ever.

The really major difference between the two games, in my opinion, is in regard to the handling of instancing and all that instancing entails. If WoW ever made it so groups of fewer than 5 players could run instances, either by scaling the dungeons to party size or by adding summonable NPCs, so that such groups had a fighting chance of completing the dungeon, that would probably tip the scales for me in favor of WoW: in other words, if Blizzard somehow retooled their instance content to make more of it accessible to 1 to 4 human players.

This is where GW really outshines WoW as far as I am concerned.

Take, as an example, Sorrow's Furnace. SF is a fair example of a "WoW-like" dungeon that exists in GW. There are multiple quests in SF that can be run in succession in one sitting or stretched out over several days. You can complete the quests with friends or on your own. You can pause in the middle of one, go out to dinner, and come back and finish it later. You never have to worry about finding a group, regardless of your profession or build. In all of these ways Sorrow's Furnace outshines, in my opinion, the instance/dungeons in WoW. In terms of actual dungeon design, WoW rocks. But in terms of dungeon accessibility/playability for all players and playstyles, GW rocks.

I only wish the 18 "unique" EotN dungeons had been more like SF ...

It would not surprise me at all if the folks at ArenaNet are really planning, in GW2, to incorporate the best of both MORPGs (WoW and GW) into a single game. How effective they will be remains to be seen, but I am really looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

On the flip side, it also makes lower level content pretty much useless once a character advances past it. Everytime Blizzard makes an expansion, the previous content becomes obsolete to high level characters.

Also, you still have to have intimate knowledge of game mechanics to succeed in WoW. You need to decide in advance how you want to advance up the talent tree to avoid paying a fee to change it later. But advancing up those Talent Trees is certainly a carrot that is hard to resist!

Although intimate knowledge of game mechanics is helpful in a power scaling progression type, it's not really mandatory unless your level/gear power level cannot exceed that of the enemies'.
I have successfully finished quests in EQ2 and WoW with little interection with the keyboard, simply by outleveling the content and/or obtaining powerful gear. I once got a wand for my warlock in WoW, where I stopped using spells simply because my wand's dps was greater on it's own. And I managed to solo an Everquest 2 raid level quest with only auto-attack, just by outleveling it. I even got a 'gratz' from all my guildies, at which point I couldn't stop laughing.

With EotN came Ursanway and PVE items, which sadly makes guild wars close to the same.

CHannum · Jan 07, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

WOW offers soooooo much more than GW's. As I said though before GW's is for the poor and most pre-teens and teenagers. Not much here for adults at all really. No progression, no real goals that have any real value. Just a handful of titles offer any real value within the game once you've defeated all the chapters and expansion pak. Thas all.

Here's your problem, WoW offers exactly none of that, none. Nothing in either game matters for bupkiss, at all, in any way. Both games are 100% distractions for fun. If you think for an instance there's more to distracting fun in either game, you're an idiot in seach of a village.

There isn't any objective difference between playing to get a shiny new set of armor with no game effect versus playing to get a weapon of 0.05% more damage and 0.06% more fire protection, none. WoW's appeal comes from that fact that most people don't get that, you can count yourself in that category.

Actually, that's not entirely true. WoW's developers exploit the tiny increases in power curves of different gear factors in elite instances to give players a sense that they're actually getting better. In the other 98% of the game, all these high tier items might make you kill a little faster, but they don't actually change anything about your ability to succeed or experience the content. However, they build a particular dungeon / instance all around needing to max out a particular niche element, and they make getting there a micromanagement and time nightmare. So you're not actually getting better, you're just finding ways to waste a ton of time to experience the illusion of getting better. It's like if you had to spend 100 hours playing some repetitive nonsense mini game to earn the ability to get another 1% of your exploration title after you reached 92% normally.

WoW has the numbers, not arguing that, it even is a somewhat better game considered outside the issue of time and money. The problem is that it's not a single one of these factors (higher level cap, infinite gear progression, etc.) you and the most vocal supporters in this thread keep on about that actually have a thing to do with it being somewhat better, they're just the illusion that keeps the gerbils running even though they're not going anywhere any more than people playing GW are.

Mordakai · Jan 07, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Actually, that's not entirely true. WoW's developers exploit the tiny increases in power curves of different gear factors in elite instances to give players a sense that they're actually getting better. In the other 98% of the game, all these high tier items might make you kill a little faster, but they don't actually change anything about your ability to succeed or experience the content. However, they build a particular dungeon / instance all around needing to max out a particular niche element, and they make getting there a micromanagement and time nightmare. So you're not actually getting better, you're just finding ways to waste a ton of time to experience the illusion of getting better. It's like if you had to spend 100 hours playing some repetitive nonsense mini game to earn the ability to get another 1% of your exploration title after you reached 92% normally.

I agree and disagree. I've never done an elite raid in WoW, so I can't comment on the waste of time bit, but surely people aren't just playing WoW for better stats! Just like in GW, people want better stuff, sure, but the reason people keep playing is because the game is fun to play. The success of MMORPGs depend on a lot of factors, but I would say the most important factor is allowing you to get attached to your character, and don't penalize you for casual play.

This is why games like City of Heroes will never have the success of Guild Wars or WoW: nobody wants to play a game where you can actually get into XP debt, and have to work your way out of just to start advancing again.

WoW actually rewards casual play by rewarding more XP from mobs the longer you haven't played a character (up to 10 days). Graphically, WoW presents the things that seem to matter to MMORPGers very clearly. Just 2 examples: The xp bar is broken into blocks, so you always feel like you're advancing, and when you're on a quest to kill or collect "X", it tells you on the screen how many you have and how many you need to finish the quest (very nice).

Of course, there are just bells and whistles on the same train most of us have been riding for quite some time. But, for whatever reason, it works. And I can't blame Blizzard for that!

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

The gwonline version of this topic is starting to discuss what Guild Wars was originally designed to be.
It wasn't originally designed to be a game that people would continue to play for long. It wasn't until people who were continuing to play the PVE game for much longer than expected that Guild Wars' developers started to make changes in order to attempt to meet the requests of prolonged character progression in PVE.

There is a quote from Gaile in that topic on gwonilne, but I also know of developer interviews in which they mention the same things. Each campaign was originally expected to show a large increase in player population, then quickly taper off as players left to play other games or moved to PvP until another campaign was to be released, which would be every 6 months.

Now I understand why the GW store started showing skill unlocks, character slots, BMP promotions. There overhead must have been a lot more than they anticipated due to players expecting Guild Wars to facilitate game play length equal to mmorpgs!

Aerian_Skybane · Jan 07, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

Basically you're telling me you don't know how to get rid of some people in WoW, thus make it a bad game when compared with GW?

Hah!

For your benefit, Aeri: Ever heard of Hearthstone? Or maybe, Gryphon? Or if level 10 is a little too early for a ride, try die & spirit rez. There're so many ways to get away from someone. You didn't even try.

Or maybe you know all of those, but you just want to "come here and say that WoW sucks" so you pretend they don't exist.

And of course I can't win in such fight. I don't ever stoop THAT low.

Although the point has already been done with (about greifing) and a consensus reached, I still find it funny you can't read all of my posts correctly/completely. I have never "came here and said WoW sucks". Just because I don't like it doesn't mean nobody else can. I am not a fanboy. At least not for GW or WoW lol.

My point still stands very loud and true that in GW, I don't have to resort to "ignoring" people or using methods in which to do so. I am much more confortable in GW playing with my close friends in my guild, then I ever was playing in WoW. I don't want to have to run away from people, fly away, or whatever. I want to play the game without worrying about coming across too many idiots. The difference between the games is that at the fundamental level I can choose between having that happen at all or not. Its quite a valid complaint, one that I am not here to troll about and such.

The more intelligent "pro-WoW" minds here have agreed with me. I am sorry you fail to realize what I am talking about. Maybe if you read my posts more clearly you will start to realize that.

AW Lore · Jan 07, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Mounts

One thing Guild Wars does not have is mounts. In WoW you can get a mount at level 40. Warlocks and Paladins get free mounts. Druids can change into a Cheetah for travel. You can pay extra gold to get an Epic mount (goes faster), and in the Burning Crusade expansion only offers flying mounts (these aren't uasable outside of Outlands, the BC area). An Epic flying mount will set you back 5,000 Gold!

And before GW player get too jealous, you cannot fight from mounts.

so, why are mounts important? you cant fight on them, you only use them move around, they cost quite a bit, its just like oblivion, i got the first horse then after seeing how useless it was (it had an "instant" map travel to cities) few times i had to walk for long to reach the place.

is the WoW mount killable? as in, if you go to an area with lots of enemies and you get down to kill them, can they kill your mount?

so, why does everyone and anyone always bring the "wow has mounts" argument?
why?
Why?
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy y??????

sorry, had to get that off of my chest

if GW2 has "mounts" i hope they keep it like the wurms and devourers, that they actually do something besides just "speeding" you around.

Quote:

Just 2 examples: The xp bar is broken into blocks, so you always feel like you're advancing, and when you're on a quest to kill or collect "X", it tells you on the screen how many you have and how many you need to finish the quest (very nice).

doesnt GW also has those two things?. i mean, there is the bar telling you how much experience you are accumulating, as well as most quests requiring you X number of stuff (im looking at you succulent juniper meat/flesh/whatever) telling you how many you have in inventory?

Redfeather1975 · Jan 07, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I honestly can't remember, but I know in EQ2 the reason the xp bar is segmented is because you get 'mini dings' which refill your energy/hp bars. I think the segments also help guage how long before you can leave the group.

".9% to ding!"
".5% to ding!"
".2% to ding!"

DIIIINNNNG!

"Okay guys, I'm tired. Night."
"Did Pwnzer DRagon just leave after dinging?!"
"Yeah"
"What a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer"

Mordakai · Jan 08, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

so, why does everyone and anyone always bring the "wow has mounts" argument?
why?
Why?
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy y??????

sorry, had to get that off of my chest

if GW2 has "mounts" i hope they keep it like the wurms and devourers, that they actually do something besides just "speeding" you around.

Why did people "ohh" and "ahh" over the Bonus Mission Pack weapons? Because they look cool.

Mounts are just another development of your character in WoW. And there are times in Guild Wars when going from one end of an instance to another that a mount would be helpful...

I actually hope GW2 goes one step further and allows you to fight from mounts!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

doesnt GW also has those two things?. i mean, there is the bar telling you how much experience you are accumulating, as well as most quests requiring you X number of stuff (im looking at you succulent juniper meat/flesh/whatever) telling you how many you have in inventory?

Look, this is a very trivial example, but for some reason just by breaking the XP bar into smaller brick size bars, it gives the illusion you are leveling faster. (There's actually add-ons in WoW that makes the XP bar more traditional, so obviously not everyone likes it).

As for "you have y / x items" notifier: it's right there in your screen, no need to go to your quest log. For me at least, that was a nice touch. Totally superfluous, but the less I have to open up menus the better...